Contrast Jake and Evelyn's relationship with Phyllis and Walter's. We noted a certain awkwardness and tension between them in their embraces. Is the same true in Chinatown?
I think that is a very interesting point. It seems that Phyllis and Walter were both playing roles of secret lovers in order to get what they want. I don't think there was ever any true intimacy between them in the way of love. Except for perhaps in Phyllis' last moments when she grabs Jake, they probably didn't really use each other for comfort. It's quite different from Jake and Evelyn. They both seem to give an impression of mutually caring for one another. I don't believe Jake was only pretending, when he slept with Evelyn, just to get more information and solve the mystery. I think a part of him was truly attracted to Evelyn, not only physically but emotionally as well. This is supported by his decision to let her escape before the police arrive and, of course, his face when he saw her dead. However, Jake is pretty closed off when it comes to his emotions about Evelyn. He did betray her wishes to stay at the house and followed her to her daughter/sisters house. It's hard to tell his exact feelings but unlike Jake, I think one could make a strong argument for Evelyn caring for Jake. There are many instances where she willingly confesses information when she could have ignored or abandoned Jake completely. She picks him up from the orange grove, she follows his orders to get in the car at the old person's home, she asks him to come back to her house after Jake follows her to her daughter's house, and she seems pleased to see him when he comes to the house when she's getting ready to leave.
Overall, I think there's much more to discuss about Jake and Evelyn because they have a real connection unlike Phyllis and Walter, who only use each other to achieve their own goals.
I agree. Phyllis and Walter had a relationship that was cold and each had a motive to be with the other and go through with the murder of Phyllis' husband. Jake and Evelyn had a much more warm relationship. Not only did they sleep together but in the end he is heartbroken by Evelyn's death. I think Jake was a bit reluctant to get involved since he had a previous experience with a woman that did not end well.
Although I agree that Jake and Evelyn appeared to have a much more intimate relationship than Walter and Phyllis, I can't help but think that some of this intimacy (or lack of) was due to Chinatown being a "Post Hays Noir" as Zack had mentioned in his presentation on Thursday. Without the limitation of the Hays Code, the audience was allowed to be shown much more intimate material, including sex, nudity, and other lustful situations that were deemed inappropriate previous to 1968, when the code was abandoned for the MPAA.
I would wager a guess that if a modern version of Double Indemnity was produced today there would be much more intimacy. I don't think modern viewers would buy that Walter would do murderous things for Phyllis without being certain that they had a physical relationship.
Excellent point! The characters will always only be "allowed" to act according to the historical circumstances. It's further evidence to show how writers and directors had to work thru suggestion rather than "showing" during this era. It would be interesting to see what Double Indemnity would look like today. We can do that (and it could make an interesting paper) with another Jame M. Cain work however--The Postman Always Rings Twice. Interestingly, the remake features Nicholson as the male lead.
I totally agree with Juan on the aspects of the motives that created distance in Phyllis and Walter's relationship compared to the growth and overall warmth expressed in Jake and Evelyn's.
I feel as though Phyllis and Walter's relationship was a more understanding relationship, while Jake and Evelyn's relationship was more a mystery unknown relationship. Phyllis and Walter both knew exactly why they had a relationship to begin with. They had a plan to kill her husband and collect the insurance money. Constantly during the movie he is telling her the plan and she says, "I know I know we have been over this." During the whole movie we have an idea of how it is going to end, and that is with the murdering of her husband. Conversely Jake and Evelyn really don't have a plan. Throughout the whole movie we are left wondering what they are trying to accomplish, and what the real goals are. What did Jake and Evelyn want to ultimately happen? Jake and Evelyn have more of a relationship in the romantic sense, while Phyllis and Walter have more of a relationship in the business use-each-other-to-get-what-we-want sense.
I agree that most of the "coldness with Walter and Phyllis was do to restrictions of the Hays code, but it did seem obvious that they slept together, it just cut away from those scenes. I thought Phyllis was cold and calculating at the beginning, but, she gradually changed. I felt she really fell for Walter in a big way. She seemed to become more desperate as he pulled away (commitment issues?,lol) I also wondered if maybe her supposedly killing the first wife (if she did - only insinuated) was possibly mercy killing (not meant intentional or maliciously. I thought she cared, but was finally fed up with being a door mat and ready to do anything to secure her own future.
I think that is a very interesting point. It seems that Phyllis and Walter were both playing roles of secret lovers in order to get what they want. I don't think there was ever any true intimacy between them in the way of love. Except for perhaps in Phyllis' last moments when she grabs Jake, they probably didn't really use each other for comfort. It's quite different from Jake and Evelyn. They both seem to give an impression of mutually caring for one another. I don't believe Jake was only pretending, when he slept with Evelyn, just to get more information and solve the mystery. I think a part of him was truly attracted to Evelyn, not only physically but emotionally as well. This is supported by his decision to let her escape before the police arrive and, of course, his face when he saw her dead. However, Jake is pretty closed off when it comes to his emotions about Evelyn. He did betray her wishes to stay at the house and followed her to her daughter/sisters house. It's hard to tell his exact feelings but unlike Jake, I think one could make a strong argument for Evelyn caring for Jake. There are many instances where she willingly confesses information when she could have ignored or abandoned Jake completely. She picks him up from the orange grove, she follows his orders to get in the car at the old person's home, she asks him to come back to her house after Jake follows her to her daughter's house, and she seems pleased to see him when he comes to the house when she's getting ready to leave.
ReplyDeleteOverall, I think there's much more to discuss about Jake and Evelyn because they have a real connection unlike Phyllis and Walter, who only use each other to achieve their own goals.
I agree. Phyllis and Walter had a relationship that was cold and each had a motive to be with the other and go through with the murder of Phyllis' husband. Jake and Evelyn had a much more warm relationship. Not only did they sleep together but in the end he is heartbroken by Evelyn's death. I think Jake was a bit reluctant to get involved since he had a previous experience with a woman that did not end well.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I agree that Jake and Evelyn appeared to have a much more intimate relationship than Walter and Phyllis, I can't help but think that some of this intimacy (or lack of) was due to Chinatown being a "Post Hays Noir" as Zack had mentioned in his presentation on Thursday. Without the limitation of the Hays Code, the audience was allowed to be shown much more intimate material, including sex, nudity, and other lustful situations that were deemed inappropriate previous to 1968, when the code was abandoned for the MPAA.
ReplyDeleteI would wager a guess that if a modern version of Double Indemnity was produced today there would be much more intimacy. I don't think modern viewers would buy that Walter would do murderous things for Phyllis without being certain that they had a physical relationship.
Excellent point! The characters will always only be "allowed" to act according to the historical circumstances. It's further evidence to show how writers and directors had to work thru suggestion rather than "showing" during this era. It would be interesting to see what Double Indemnity would look like today.
ReplyDeleteWe can do that (and it could make an interesting paper) with another Jame M. Cain work however--The Postman Always Rings Twice. Interestingly, the remake features Nicholson as the male lead.
I totally agree with Juan on the aspects of the motives that created distance in Phyllis and Walter's relationship compared to the growth and overall warmth expressed in Jake and Evelyn's.
ReplyDeleteI feel as though Phyllis and Walter's relationship was a more understanding relationship, while Jake and Evelyn's relationship was more a mystery unknown relationship. Phyllis and Walter both knew exactly why they had a relationship to begin with. They had a plan to kill her husband and collect the insurance money. Constantly during the movie he is telling her the plan and she says, "I know I know we have been over this." During the whole movie we have an idea of how it is going to end, and that is with the murdering of her husband. Conversely Jake and Evelyn really don't have a plan. Throughout the whole movie we are left wondering what they are trying to accomplish, and what the real goals are. What did Jake and Evelyn want to ultimately happen?
ReplyDeleteJake and Evelyn have more of a relationship in the romantic sense, while Phyllis and Walter have more of a relationship in the business use-each-other-to-get-what-we-want sense.
I agree that most of the "coldness with Walter and Phyllis was do to restrictions of the Hays code, but it did seem obvious that they slept together, it just cut away from those scenes. I thought Phyllis was cold and calculating at the beginning, but, she gradually changed. I felt she really fell for Walter in a big way. She seemed to become more desperate as he pulled away (commitment issues?,lol) I also wondered if maybe her supposedly killing the first wife (if she did - only insinuated) was possibly mercy killing (not meant intentional or maliciously. I thought she cared, but was finally fed up with being a door mat and ready to do anything to secure her own future.
ReplyDelete